January 8, 2007 Host: Charisse Dengler Guest: Kieran Shanahan
Charisse Dengler talks with Kieran Shanahan, a principal of Shanahan Law Group, about his career. Shanahan discusses what made him want to become an attorney, the five years he spent as an Assistant United States Attorney in the Criminal Division, and the terms he spent on the Raleigh City Council. In addition to his past experiences, Shanahan talks about his current job at the Shanahan Law Group, which he started in 2001. He goes over what he likes the most and what he dislikes the most about his current position.
Shanahan, who is the president and founder of the North Carolina Property Rights Coalition, also talks about the coalition and its goals. The coalition, which is dedicated to advancing the rights and interests of property owners in North Carolina, is heavily involved in monitoring eminent domain issues, and Shanahan is proud to be a part of it.
In conclusion, Shanahan shares his advice with law students, urging them to become well-rounded, educated problem solvers. Duration: 00:13:23
Charisse Dengler: Good afternoon everyone and welcome to another LawCrossing podcast. This is Charisse Dengler, and today I'm joined by Kieran Shanahan.
Charisse Dengler: Tell me how long you've been an attorney?
Kieran Shanahan: Since nineteen eighty-two.
Charisse Dengler: Okay, and what first gave you the idea to go to law school?
Kieran Shanahan: Good question. I grew up in the Washington D.C., area where many of the folks that I knew were lawyers or politicians or both and so I ... a lawyer and elected official at the city council level. So, I guess just from youth I always knew that I wanted to be a lawyer.
Charisse Dengler: Okay. Is there anyone that you would say has influenced you the most or changed the course of your career along the way or anything? Maybe somebody in your life that first made the law look appealing or to realize that an attorney looked appealing or anything like that? Or a professor or something maybe that let you know what area of law you wanted to go into?
Kieran Shanahan: I would say that I've always had a love of the constitution. And I had a professor in college, his name is Don East who actually went on to be a U.S. Senator who opened up my mind and understanding on constitutional form of government. And I would say that was probably very inspirational in my regard to pursue - I actually pursued a legal career in business and politics and then went on the law school.
Charisse Dengler: Okay. Where did you get your under graduate degree?
Kieran Shanahan: Got my under graduate degree from the East Carolina University.
Charisse Dengler: Okay, and then where did you go to law school?
Kieran Shanahan: Went to law school in Chapel University, North Carolina. Chapel Hill.
Charisse Dengler: Okay. And what do you like most about practicing law?
Kieran Shanahan: I really think that - I'm very fortunate that we have kind of a small practice and I really enjoy problem solving for clients.
Charisse Dengler: Okay.
Kieran Shanahan: Our firm is a mixture of businesses - we do business litigation and personal estate so we tend to have relationships that require us to understand our client's situations and needs on a global basis. And then try to figure out how to help them achieve their goals. Sometimes it's legal sometimes it's business. Sometimes it can be family related and emotional so being able to help clients, problem solve and then achieve their objectives is extremely rewarding to me.
Charisse Dengler: Okay. And is there any part of your day-to-day job that you dislike, that you could do without?
Kieran Shanahan: No, you hate the administrative part of billing and keeping up with the bills. And I think that we try very hard on the front end to make sure that the client understands the financial aspects of representation. But still there is the drudgery of getting bills out and making sure they're collected and getting the lights on kind of stuff. And I think most people it's not fun. But when you can trash that and stand up in the courtroom and having the privilege of arguing a case to a jury, it makes it all worth it.
Charisse Dengler: Okay. Do you have any advice for students who want to go into the same area that you're practicing in now?
Kieran Shanahan: I would say that the one thing - I do encourage young lawyers to try a specialization but it's unlikely that they're going to know when they're in law school what it is. Not until they get out there and begin to actually do things that they're going really know what may suit their talents and what they have a passion for. But I think if you - it's encumbered upon all lawyers to become problem solvers even if you're a specialist. You have to have a real global approach not only understand the law but business and people. Personalities. And to be able to bring all those resources to bear on whatever your client's problem is. And I think those to me are going to be - those skills are going to be in high demand in the future. If you're able to not only know the law but then be able to apply the law to your client's particular situation in an effective way.
Charisse Dengler: Okay.
Kieran Shanahan: But in terms of trying to answer your question I would recommend if you're going to be a litigator you've got to like pressure. You're usually under time constraints, high pressure, time constraints, long hours. And you just have to have the tenacity to stick with litigation. It can be lonely; it can be drawn out but it's very strategic. A lot of people I don't think appreciate how strategic litigation can be. So in that sense it's intellectually challenging than any other. At the same time you've to have - be able to communicate with not only a judge or an opposing counsel but ultimately the jury to persuade them. To really break it down for a juror to understand in clear and simple terms what are otherwise complex problems.
Charisse Dengler: Okay. In the past you worked as a federal prosecutor?
Kieran Shanahan: I did, yes.
Charisse Dengler: Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Kieran Shanahan: I started as a federal prosecutor. This was white-collar crime and so I did a couple of financial crimes, which were extremely interesting and exciting, to me anyway. Because often times the perpetrators were white collar, wealthy, well to do, well thought of people. And their defense invariably was this was either a business deal that went bad or they wouldn't really deny what happened so much but they'd just deny there was any criminal intent associated with it. So having to prove that guilt beyond a reasonable doubt where it may not be readily apparent what the crime is.
For example, if you've got a drug case and the guy has gotten arrested and his got five pounds of marijuana in the trunk of his car it's not hard to prove he's engaged to the crime. Whereas in a white collar case defining the crime in itself can be challenging and then proving that crime. One can say, "I always had a legitimate investment and it just didn't work out. I got other people to invest it just didn't work out." And we'll say, "No it wasn't legitimate from the beginning. You scammed them, it's a fraud, it's a crime and you should go to jail for it."
Charisse Dengler: Okay.
Kieran Shanahan: It's a little bit different. White-collar crime is a little bit different because each and every crime isn't spelled out in the statutes but instead you just have this broad, "If anyone commits a fraud and uses the mails to further any fraud they can be found guilty." Well frauds are as varied as the mind can imagine. So as a prosecutor you have to figure out what the fraud is and what was illegal about it. And then bring indictment; commit a grand jury and ultimately convince a jury of the wrongdoing of the individual.
Charisse Dengler: Okay. Did you work in any cases that like public would recognize?
Kieran Shanahan: In my civil - is this publication civic wide or?
Charisse Dengler: Yeah, it's civic wide.
Kieran Shanahan: Certainly I was probably known or had a reputation for my arson related prosecutions where people burn down various structures in an attempt to collect the insurance proceeds. And there is a Liberty Tobacco Warehouse out of Wilson North Carolina was a very high-profile, very complex litigation that I'm probably known for. On the civil side I think I've had a couple of cases. I had a fairly significant case against Wachovia Bank that went to the North Carolina Supreme Court. That was a trust arising out of - by beneficiaries who were a tobacco family. The fortune of the tobacco family that we alleged had been mismanaged by Wachovia and that case received a lot of profile.
Charisse Dengler: Okay.
Kieran Shanahan: And then I had another case involving Microsoft where I represented businesses and individuals from North Carolina who we alleged were forced to pay any competitive prices and that case settled for eighty nine million dollars. And Microsoft agreed to pay school children in North Carolina about forty million dollars so that children who were at risk can have computers and computer equipment. So we're very proud of that obviously in helping folks.
Charisse Dengler: Okay. And then your job as a - when you were a federal prosecutor, is that a job that is only allowed for a certain time period?
Kieran Shanahan: No. I was in what is called an assistant - a federal prosecutor or assistant district attorney.
Charisse Dengler: Okay.
Kieran Shanahan: A lot of folks - it used to be historically that people would go there for three or four years or in the major cities that tends to be the case. People go in, then come out and go on to other things. Now it's - it was not a political appointment in that sense. Now you're having more and more people it seems that stay longer and longer. But I had about a total of five years as a prosecutor, federal prosecutor.
Charisse Dengler: Okay. And then also you are currently the president of the Capital Area Republican Club?
Kieran Shanahan: Actually that term has expired now.
Charisse Dengler: Okay.
Kieran Shanahan: I wouldn't mention that. I think probably more important is that and it's actually more related to my job is that I'm the president of the North Carolina Property Rights Coalition.
Charisse Dengler: Okay.
Kieran Shanahan: And you can go to ncpropertyrights.com if you want to see about it. You can also probably get my bio on our website which is shanahanlawgroup.com or we can send you if it's not on there.
Charisse Dengler: Okay.
Kieran Shanahan: I haven't looked at the web site lately so I have no idea what's on it but it probably talks about some of my various cases. The North Carolina Property Rights Coalition is a group that's dedicated to securing a constitutional amendment in North Carolina to limit government takings by eminent domain. There was a case that came out in June of '05 called the Kelo versus New London case. A Supreme Court case that said that the local governments can take someone's private property for purposes of economic development. We want to take your property because we want to power plant here and so we want it instead of somebody to come in or something like that. So it's not taken for public purpose but for public use.
And the Kelo decision said that every state could regulate the takings any way they wanted. And the North Carolina - about twenty or thirty states acted pretty quickly to plug that hole and then a number of other states coalitions have arisen. And so I started the one here and I'm president of it now. We're trying to convince the legislature to allow the public to vote in the general election on whether or not we should amend the North Carolina constitution. To limit the use of eminent domain to those situations where there is only legitimate government taking for public use.
Charisse Dengler: Okay.
Kieran Shanahan: And that's probably what I'm very proud of it. I'm very aware we've got thousands of people signed up on our web site. We've got a very distinguished board of thought leaders, lawyers and what not from around the state.
Charisse Dengler: That's great.
Kieran Shanahan: I think that's a pretty big objective, yeah.
Charisse Dengler: Yeah. And if you had to pick do you think there's any major issues facing the legal field right now that attorneys have to deal with or?
Kieran Shanahan: I think it's always a - unfortunately there is a kind of a constant reputation that lawyers have and I think it's important that they keep a very bright ethical line in the things they do. And I also think in terms of the (crematious) if you will, is that I don't think business people or even the consuming public mind paying a fair price. And I think the hourly arrangement sometimes may not healthy. I think it's an issue in the industry that we're grappling with whether paying somebody on an hourly basis is really the preferred method.
So I think the industry especially the larger firms are really grappling with how do you equitably charge for your services. Whether it's a crisis or not it's just a significant issue that I think that businesses who regularly pay attorneys and law firms generally, it's easier for law firms to judge the profitability of each lawyer based on billable hours and rates and things like that. But often times that may not - just because you spend X amount of hours doesn't necessarily mean the client got that kind of value out of it. So that's a real big issue. Making sure that our - that the private practice of law adapts to the market place as it comes to setting fees.
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